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Qemist
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Topic: Isometric Perspective Problem
    Posted: 20 August 2011 at 8:56am
Hey guys!

New to pixel joint here. My pixel experience goes way back to about 10 years ago. I felt like getting back to pixel art and have always been into the isometric arts. Want to make a mech game myself and have recently started on it.

Heres the first concept from the front that walks wich I'm pretty happy with:



but I'm struggeling on the back of the mech. heres what I got so far:



anyone able to help me out a bit?

thanks in advance!



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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2011 at 1:25pm
because im waiting for replies heres a start on the colours that serves as a nice little bump on the thread


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Lathien
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Quote Lathien Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2011 at 3:55pm
I've never been much for iso view so I may a little out of my depth here, but I think that you're problem is that the...cockpit? of the mech is further forward on the front view than the back. You may notice that in the front view the upper section of the legs lean forward, whereas in the back view they are straight lines.

That may be a place to start. Hope I helped.
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2011 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Lathien

I've never been much for iso view so I may a little out of my depth here, but I think that you're problem is that the...cockpit? of the mech is further forward on the front view than the back. You may notice that in the front view the upper section of the legs lean forward, whereas in the back view they are straight lines.

That may be a place to start. Hope I helped.


Hey Lathien, thanks for your reply!
This is what my problem is indeed, the straight leg and the cockpit. Now to find the solution! Ive drawn quite a few leg lines aswell as fiddling for ages now with the cockpit but I cant find what I need.

Tips, tricks.. anyone?
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Quote CELS Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2011 at 5:28pm
Cool to see some mechs on here. This site needs more Battletech.

Speaking of which, perhaps you could google the 'catapult mech' to get a reference of what the legs should look like? Right now, I don't understand how this thing would be able to do anything other than walk on a straight line on a completely flat surface. Use the battletech mechs for more realistic design.

I've made a quick edit to suggest how the angle would look if the legs were in the same position. However, you should consider the fact that the legs are positioned too far apart considering how narrow the mech's body is. That is part of the reason why similar battletech designs have the legs attached to 'hips' rather than sticking out from the cockpit itself.



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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2011 at 6:23pm
Hey Cels thanks for the help! it still looks weird as you say it might be the attaching to body, but on the front one it looks quite "ok" so maybe its more the shading and such? Now what is even more of a pain is that window on the side that one because of the curve is probably the hardest to do on this thing.
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Quote CELS Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2011 at 6:56pm
It looks ok from the front because one of the legs is hidden by the body. That doesn't mean that it is ok. If you compare the distance between the outside of the feet with the width of the cockpit, you'll see that the legs don't fit at all. They're too far apart, because the 'toes' take up so much space. So while the front image may look ok to you, the leg that is hidden by the body would actually be connected to nothing but thin air
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2011 at 7:16pm
ok I see what you mean..

but looking at mech models it shouldnt be to hard to adjust I think

Check the catapult

Would just have to add another bend on the top end of the leg right? I wanna keep it relatively simple and just have one base design wich I can script with.

Again, thanks for the help I've been fiddling too much with the view to have a proper opinion on whats wrong with it
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Quote CELS Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2011 at 7:22pm
I would recommend using something similar to this. The body should be mounted on a plate, with the legs connected to either side. This would give the mech much needed mobility. You don't want a mech that doesn't have space to move its legs sideways, otherwise it would fall over when walking in sloped terrain.

As you say, it's not hard to adjust. You just need to draw a wide plate below the cockpit and attach the legs to that. Preferably, the top of the legs should be a bit bulky, for the sake of realism. If they were just nailed to the side of the plate, they would not be dextrous enough.


Edited by CELS - 20 August 2011 at 7:22pm
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2011 at 7:29pm
yeah I see. The way it looks right now I'm better off with doing that aswell as putting the missile pods on the "shoulder" position like the image shows. If you look at the back of the mech it looks quite weird. If the front stays this big it might be better not to as it seems to be balanced atm.

 As you can see I'm quite confused right now
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2011 at 8:30am
Just coloured the backside a bit and gave the window shape another try..
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2011 at 9:59am
Trying to fix the legs

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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2011 at 1:13pm
Better now:
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2011 at 3:37pm
Some (re)tries on physics


Edited by Qemist - 22 August 2011 at 3:37pm
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2011 at 3:44pm
Conclusions:

1. Creating a walking isometric robot is hard
2. The 3rd image is the best so far but
3. If I could get the smooth bar in the middle shown in picture one and two to work it could look alot better.

Any tips or help is apreciated :)
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Quote Lathien Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2011 at 3:44pm
It's looking good, and I think the back leg of this current animation is quite smooth but the front leg is kind of twitchy. Even though I realise you can't move the leg much considering the angle, I think you just need to move it slightly each frame and make the front leg's step last as many frames as the back leg to make it smoother.
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2011 at 4:13pm
Yeah I kinda figured that too. The weird part is the back animation is the same as the front, its just hidden. I want to end up with picture 1 (it needs to be double the lenght because the bar needs to go the other way also) and even the "toes" to be turning down like a claw. If I could get that to work that'd be awsome.

Things I havent fixed are above, but I still need to have the back of the mech done aswell wich caused me so much issues I just tried to work on the walking :p

Thanks for your opinion it shows me that its not just me.
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2011 at 5:01pm
heres all the angles of the moving bar between the legs. Not sure if its gonna work because the isometric stuff is pretty heavy on the head :p



Heres a newer version:




Edited by Qemist - 22 August 2011 at 5:58pm
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Quote CELS Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2011 at 5:57pm
Well, this is better. Now you have an equivalent of a hip bone, which makes it a bit more realistic. But it seems to me that this design would benefit so much if you had used some references. Instead of reinventing the wheel, why not make use of the brilliant work of others?

For example, it's natural to start by looking at animals that have similar legs as this. Specifically, birds. Look at it in slow motion, and study the way they move.

Also, you could look at videos from MechWarrior games and study how similar mechs walk. The Mad Cat, the Vulture (aptly named as its legs are reminiscent of those of birds) and similar designs. You'll notice that their legs are not connected by a moving bar in between. For one thing, it's almost physically impossible, because the movement in your last animation would require the edges of the moving bar to be soft.

Instead, most mechs have their legs mounted on ball joints. This is no coincidence, as its also the way biological legs are attached to hips. It gives the leg enough mobility to move on sloping surfaces.

If you choose to just use artistic license, I would at least recommend giving the robot a longer stride than you've shown above.

Keep up the good work :)
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2011 at 6:01pm
see the edit I just posted :)

I think it looks quite good?

Ive been looking at the mechs with the hip thing but couldnt get it to work on what I have here. I think this might work out well tho

Edit: oh yeah and dont forget, this is just concept art I want to use to start the scripting with. Once I have the walking on the "client side" and being able to see eachother live trough the server connection I will try to make it all as good as possible (but I expect to fix things more and more as I go because thats what I always do)


Edited by Qemist - 22 August 2011 at 6:04pm
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Quote wuhu Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2011 at 10:46pm
Looks like your working hard on the animation at the moment.
I have a small comment about the coloring which was one of the first and easiest  technique changes i did to make my pictures look more pixel-arty.
The edges/corners of square blocks should be the lightest color instead of a dark outline.


From the noobtorials thread


Edited by wuhu - 22 August 2011 at 11:20pm
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Quote ChrisButton Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2011 at 12:21am
It's not hard you just don't know how to animate it lol.
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2011 at 4:34am
Originally posted by ChrisButton

It's not hard you just don't know how to animate it lol.


I guess if you are really experienced it probably is, wich I'm not. But thanks
for pointing out not everyone would struggle this much.

Do you think the last walk I posted isnt right? If so, what would you do to improve it?

@Wuhu: yup, as you can see the lines inside allready have this but some games work with hard outlines and since I dont know where this will be going I'm keeping the hard black outlines for now.

The full detail isnt done at all as you can see the legs and the front have more detail then the back but I dont worry too much about that for now as this is concept art to make basic coding. So the views and walking physics should be 100% acurate but everything next to that I'd rather keep at a basic level to work with.

Thanks for all the feedback!


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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2011 at 7:47am
I guess I didnt explain how I want to do it but:

Concider this movement as the first generation of mech technology, where you cant shoot and walk at the same time. This way, the game can upgrade into having the second generation of technology making it interesting and worth it to "grind" for better gear.

Game Mechanics. :)
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2011 at 1:23pm
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2011 at 6:52am
Because I'm not sure if I want to keep the cockpit thing above the legs I just created a square to see if it would actually look / work the way I want. I think the leg movement makes it really look like a heavy machine wich is what I was going for in the first place. I dont know if the other leg option would give me that look, and even if it does, I cant really get my head around it yet.

With this kind of leg movement the body will look insane also




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Quote CELS Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2011 at 6:59am
I really like what you've done with the "toes" on the feet. Very much like the MechWarrior games, and it adds a lot of realism, reminiscent of bird feet.

As mentioned above, the fact that you're using a flexible bar, whose angles and corners are bent for every step, is not only almost physically impossible, but it also has some weird consequences on anything attached to it. The cube you've attached on top is now being warped back and forth, like an empty cardboard box. It doesn't appear solid.
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2011 at 8:21am
Yup I had the same tought there and I dont like my top design either so its time to start over with simulair feet and work from there.

This is gonna be my reference


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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 26 August 2011 at 5:56am
Actually went for the madcat instead because a dude I game with loves it. Doing the windows is a pain tho.

Worked out a tile size together with a name of the game: "RUST45"
The icon in the bottom left could be a health icon.



EDIT: I once found this picture on google, and resised it.. more or less traced it, never mentioned as I was (or am) new to pixelart. I decided not to use it and still try to create my own thing. I just got a comment on my first posted gallery piece (wich is not this one) and the guy who made the original noticed. Again, this is the only piece I did like this and I regret doing so. I did learn alot from it and props to the original owner for not being too bad about it but just poinint out "thats not ok, sir!"

original can be found here


Edited by Qemist - 25 September 2011 at 5:40am
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 02 September 2011 at 4:12am
I was trying too hard to make it look fancy while I think I achieved more result by just creating all the line art first.

Heres my sketchy (=unfinsihed / WIP) 8 angle artwork:


now to fix the shapes and such :D
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 02 September 2011 at 5:06am
Great job on this. kutgw.
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 02 September 2011 at 5:54am
Originally posted by jalonso

Great job on this. kutgw.


Thanks I guess? What do you mean with Kutgw? sorry I'm not a native

Oh and I love your artwork sir!


Edited by Qemist - 02 September 2011 at 5:54am
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 02 September 2011 at 5:58am
kutgw = Keep up the good work 
Without me, it's just aweso
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 02 September 2011 at 5:58am
Originally posted by Club Beuker

kutgw = Keep up the good work 


Ahh! Thanks! I love being back into pixelart so hope its gonna pay off
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 02 September 2011 at 6:21am
beside some size and line issues I noticed the fully front and back facing perspectives are wrong. The one thats facing front looks more like its facing down.

Back to work!
Edit: I was fooled by the isometric perspective again, it actuall is facing right I guess its more a size of shape thing (comparing it to the other views. Defenitly working on fixing stuff atm)


Edited by Qemist - 02 September 2011 at 6:36am
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2011 at 6:39pm


Another sketch wich looks alot better I think. Still some minor adjustments to make lineart wise.

I guess once I get more finished artwork that I'll open a new topic thats more organised.


Edited by Qemist - 12 September 2011 at 11:36pm
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Quote Delicious Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 2:06am
incredible improvement. I look forward to seeing what you have in store for the colors and all. Keep it up!
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Quote CELS Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 2:57am
Awesome. As a huge Battletech fan, I will give you two hundred internet points if you do a walking animation cycle with these mechs. :)
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 2:57am
Originally posted by Delicious

incredible improvement. I look forward to seeing what you have in store for the colors and all. Keep it up!


Thanks! Im that "rise and repeat" type of person. Keep trying to improve the piece until I'm fully satisfied.

Im lurking around for colours allready but feel like I should perfect the lineart and walking cycle! cool to see people are actually "following" the topic and enjoying the art!


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Quote mase0ne Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 8:23am
Great improvements!  The main thing that your walk cycle is missing is forward movement.  With every frame, the foot should either be traveling backward (when in contact with the ground) or traveling forward (when not in contact with the ground).  Without this constant motion, your mechs will look like they're stamping their feet instead of moving forward.
 
It's super hard to do, but will be worth it.
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 10:16am
Originally posted by mase0ne

Great improvements!  The main thing that your walk cycle is missing is forward movement.  With every frame, the foot should either be traveling backward (when in contact with the ground) or traveling forward (when not in contact with the ground).  Without this constant motion, your mechs will look like they're stamping their feet instead of moving forward.
 
It's super hard to do, but will be worth it.


I realised that later, but it was a concept / try to see how it would work and soon after I realised the whole design wasnt able to do what it needs to do (or didnt look as cool if it would).

Thanks to you and everyone who has been helping me out so far!

Wuhu, it took a while before I figured out what you meant but I applied it this time! Thanks for that tip!

As for delicious his post I started working on some colours. I actually used some colours for this like you've used in one of your designs. Hope you dont mind I did but it suited my needs well.

Not sure what to do with the window yet. I lost transparancy because Photoshop was being a b*tch and I used Paint to colour. Thats why I added the funky yelleuw!


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Quote Cyangmou Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 11:43am
In my opinion the weightpoint is obvious behind the central axis and because it seems that it'd keel over behind. You can fix it if you move the driver's cab approxemately10-20px forwrds (dont forget the 10-5px y-axis movement too...)
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by Cyangmou

In my opinion the weightpoint is obvious behind the central axis and because it seems that it'd keel over behind. You can fix it if you move the driver's cab approxemately10-20px forwrds (dont forget the 10-5px y-axis movement too...)


Hey Cyangmou,

Thanks for your opinion, but if you look at all the angles you'll see that the legs are bent backwards and in this case they would carry the weight and balance you are talking about.

And if you mean by Y-Axis that I shouldnt forget it has to riotate on top I wont. Theres a circle in the middle wich allows this to do so.
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Quote Cyangmou Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 1:05pm
Ah really interesting point. I'll show you the problem from the engineer's side.



The backwrd bended legs move the centre part a little bit behind, that's right. Although you have added behind the centre two very heavy looking weights and this moves the balance point even more behind.
Now you have a huge hinge moment and a weak point where I drew it in.

If you are going to balance it that way, you should also rotate the feet (as i did in the second big image), because it makes the gravitation force which is effecting the ground only half as big (in front there is no weight so there don't need to be two toes, it's senseless).

Also if you want to rotate it you should keep the balance, an unbalanced rotation (drew it in in the second big image) is hard to control and good maschines always uses balanced rotations if they move often and need to be highly manoeuverable, it'll also make the whole thing faster (if you'd build it in real or as modell)
If you have some basic phisyc knowings you can also make a short mechanical calculations and you'll see that the things I tell you are OK.
Even if you do the changes I made it'll keep tipping backwards.

But we are here artists and not engineers, because of this I just said it looks weird in my opinion (just that you know some technical facts about your construction =) just show you this to explain you my point of view  )

And your reference makes a better weighting allocation then yours, study it after the points I made out and you'll see that it's centered on it's feet.


Edited by Cyangmou - 13 September 2011 at 1:15pm
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 1:17pm
ahh I see.. yeah it would probably ruin my entire picture tho.. Maybe work for later when I get the walking cycle. Also, the feet seem to be more logical the way you put it, but again.. it looks less cool? I dont know it can walk and not tumble so as you said maybe for now better off to just make it look good. I can always turn back and fix that kind of stuff just because its possible.

Your info is really cool tho and I appreciate it alot! :) Interesting
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Quote Cyangmou Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 1:25pm
because of this you just have to put the driver's cab a little bit forward. It's an easy edit even for all 8 directions and it adds a lot. Take a look at this gif here =)


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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2011 at 1:36pm
ow sh*t.. :D

sorry if I sounded a little cocky, just read back what I wrote and I didnt understand you completely till you posted the gif! Awsome help this is great I love all of you guys!!




Edited by Qemist - 13 September 2011 at 1:49pm
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2011 at 8:34pm
A progress of my work:



Is the front from the third of the top (and first from the second row) correct if you look at the mech in the top left corner and compare? Im not sure if its too small or a wrong line but it seems weird.

Guns are all messed upand will edit those soon too. I flipped the views so lightning isnt correct yet. Didnt move the body yet either. It all aint easy for me but I'm getting there step by step..


Edited by Qemist - 14 September 2011 at 8:34pm
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Quote mase0ne Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2011 at 10:06pm
Looks great so far!  When you animate it in perspective, the easiest way to do it is to animate the feet, then connect the everything from there.  In this image, the green marks are feet pushing backwards against the ground, and the red marks are the feet resetting while being held above the ground.  This is set up for an 8-frame walk cycle.  Make them farther apart for a longer stride, add more for a smoother animation:
 
I'm not sure of the articulation, so if the lower leg pivots then just do the feet, but here's a test animation:
 


Edited by mase0ne - 14 September 2011 at 10:15pm
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Quote Qemist Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2011 at 7:26am
dude you are my hero haha that is so cool :D
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